Would this get credited at worlds?

Raisman’s Amanar attempt at Classic last weekend:

Better than the last time she tried it, yes, but disappointing. I had hoped for better. For someone who has an excellent DTY and who’s allegedly been training the 2.5 for 18 months, that’s not a great effort. A lot of people observed that it looked like she’d only just learned how to do it.

It clearly wasn’t fully rotated. But it was credited as an Amanar anyway, and she received the full 6.5 for it.This wasn’t a big surprise. US domestic scoring is universally renowned as a giveaway. The habit of crediting things that clearly shouldn’t be credited has caused trouble in the past. Anyone remember Sacramone not getting the EGR in Aarhus prelims after being given it all year at home?

Love the high tumbling in that set, but anyone who thought she was meeting the EGR for the leap sequence clearly hadn’t read it.

Anyways, the issue at hand is the crediting of short vaults internationally. The COP has specified since 2006 (or was it 07?) that all vaults must be fully rotated, or they are to be downgraded. Even if they’re only an eensy bit short. There’s no difference between 180 degrees and 260. They’re both supposed to get the same D score. Supposed to. In practice though, it’s not usually worked like that.

To some extent, a pattern had emerged. Judges were strict at Euros, then less so at worlds/Olympics. So for example in 08, Becky Downie’s DTY at Euros was about one and seven eighths round, but wasn’t credited.

Then in Beijing, the A panel credited every single vault that called itself an Amanar. Cheng Fei and Shawn Johnson were short in every round but prelims, and Pavlova seriously only got 2.25 rotations done in the final. But they still all got their 6.5s.

Shawn in the AA:

Saint Anna in vault finals

(Incidentally, love that zero. The judges wait for her, not the other way round. Once again Miss Pavlova, we salute you).

This continued in 2009. Here is Rebecca Bross doing a not fully rotated DTY at worlds and getting 5.8 for it.

Interesting, since other aspects of vault judging were quite picky in London. They spent a lot of time umming and aahing over whether to credit various dished rudis as straight or piked too.

Then at 2010 worlds, it seemed that a new unwritten rule had emerged. If you were more than a quarter of the way round, you’d get credited for the extra half turn, but otherwise not.

Hence Mustafina and Kaeslin got away with it in EFs (and this, not her body shape on the second vault which the judges wrongly said was piked, is the real reason Aliya didn’t deserve to win vault). But Nabieva didn’t.

Aliya:

Ariella:

Tanya, twisting on landing but at the point of first impact I think she’s about 90 degrees short.

Now I think to some extent this is a deliberate policy. Some vaults are only slightly short, and not necessarily visible in real time. Jiang Yuyuan in TFs, for example, although youtube doesn’t have this routine on its own. Realistically, the judges are going to miss most of the five degrees short ones. I can see how they might have missed Aliya’s above, but Ariella’s was pretty frigging obvious. Not as obvious as Our Nabz though.

Which is why I’m wondering whether this is deliberate. The current rules are pretty stupid. It seems very unfair that a vault like Cheng Fei’s in the Beijing EF should only start from a 5.8.

It was only very slightly short, after all. And for better of for worse, judges aren’t applying them. I can imagine some of this is mistakes, but let’s be honest, being a difficulty panel judge on vault isn’t one of the more difficult assignments. Assuming the gymnast doesn’t show some mangled effort that could be one of a number of vaults (see Cheng Fei’s second vault in the above video for an example) you’re really just counting the twists.

With that in mind, I fully expect to see more athletes get credited for short Amanar attempts at worlds. The question is, will Aly be one of them…?

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16 responses to “Would this get credited at worlds?

  • Stoi!

    I suppose the execution panel could deduct for lack of precision. Not sure they actually do though, if you look at scores for downgraded vaults. For example, Cheng Fei got about 15.2 for a downgraded Amanar in 06 worlds TFs. That’s pretty high for a DTY. Kurbatova got 14 for a downgraded DTY at 2010 Euros TFs. That’s in line with what good Yurchenko 1.5s were getting at the same competition- Becky Downie got 14.075 and I think hers might have been the highest.
    C

  • Stoi!

    Ashley, in answer to your questions, the judges look at feet on landing, not knees. That’s why some Russian Amanars have helicopter legs. They’re trying to make sure the feet get round first, at the expense of anything else.
    Aly wouldn’t be discredited for overrotating a DTY, it would just be the usual 5.8 if they downgraded her.

  • Ashley

    hmmm. after reading gymnasticscoaching (and not wanting to comment there for the spam commenting going on in that post), i think that aly’s vault should be credited but devalued as opposed to discredited. if it was discredited, i’m guessing she would lose credit too for then overrotating a DTY. it’s a lose lose. i understand that if you want perfection, discrediting is the better option, but i think the gymnast should be rewarded for her effort (credit) and then lose value from the e-score.

    again, it’s hard to see these things in real time. aly’s knees do look like they’re 45 degrees, but i tried to look at her feet and they were buried in the mat, covered in that instant. what are the judges technically looking at on the landing anyway- feet? knees? i think, human error, they’re going to miss those that are slightly short. so, i think it’s better to credit and then dock them in execution scores – in the end it was an amanar, just a (very) poorly executed.

    and, i just looked at the score again and don’t see how she didn’t get more deducted for 3 steps, 2 of which are oob, leg separation on the entry, and sloppy legs in the landing (i think she starts to slightly helicopter and bends/tucks early)

  • Stoi!

    Credited. She looked to have got round, so if she was short it couldn’t have been by much. Certainly not by Nabieva-esque proportions.
    C

  • g

    How would you say Kyla Ross’s amanar at classics stacks up against these? Credit or not?

  • Stoi!

    I’d rather see Jordyn keep her 2.5 dismount, it’s really high and clean. My favourite part of her beam set.
    C

  • Stoi!

    RE : Triple twists off beam.

    The best current triple off beam is probably Iordache’s. It was a little short at EYOF, the one from Gym Festival was better :

    Jordyn is training a triple dismount (it looked good in a training video), and I’m placing bets that if Grishina is ever not injured for longer than a week, that her 2 1/2 will turn into a triple. Surely it would look better than Dementyeva and Mustafina’s. It would be a nice looking dismount on Komova too. She has rather minimul crossed feet.

    -B

  • Stoi!

    Coach Rick made a very good point — “The 0.7 difference between the two vaults is far too great, especially since the Execution judges are not differentiating much between the best and worst.”

    Clara is much better at discrediting vaults than I am. My specialty is to discredit leaps and turns. I would probably credit Aly’s Amanar, but it looks like an injury waiting to happen. Everyone harps on Aliya’s twisting form, and I’m a biased ho, but at least she has repulsion and pop off the table. Or at least in Rotterdam she did. Aly does not. It’s completely flat. Her form isn’t completely nauseating, and twisting like an upside down figure skater is likely to get a girl injured eventually.

    This was just Classics, maybe they wanted to throw Aly a bone for attempting it. I’m hoping the vault judging in Tokyo will be a little stricter (or at least make sense) this year.

    Somehow Afanasyeva & Lauren Mitchell’s DTY’s scored within 5 tenths of each other. Maybe that can be Clara’s next post.

    –Bronwyn

  • Stoi!

    Irichuck, you’re correct. I’ve read elsewhere that there was a rule change after Aarhus, but don’t know if this is true. Hers is the only short Amanar I remember seeing that year. Hong Su Jong got hers round at the Asian Games, and I think at worlds too (although she fell so quickly it’s hard to tell).
    C

  • Irichluck21

    And I would not credit Raisman’s 2 1/2 if I were a judge, i would devalue it.

    Sasha I would agree with you if the deduction for incomplete twists was enough penalty to dissuade any gymnast who really couldn’t get it around but was going for the extra in D score.

  • Irichluck21

    Cheng Fei’s 2 1/2 was devalued at the 2006 Worlds, IIRC (going on memory) and given a 5.8 rating-granted it was the first year of the open ended code.

    One of my favorite triple full off beam was by Ji Liya at the 1997 American Cup. Looks completely rotated (not sure completely based on camera angle):

  • getting credit for Amanar — Gymnastics Coaching.com

    […] Click through to Stoi to see that Vault compared with others – Would this get credited at worlds? […]

  • Stoi!

    X, the rule is that the lead foot has to have completed the exact number of degrees necessary at the point of landing. It doesn’t matter about the trailing foot, or any other body part. That’s why you sometimes get gymnasts doing helicopter legs, to try and get the trailing foot round. Mustafina was attempting this when she crashes at Euros. It’s a risky little game. But it is more likely to allow an athlete to complete the twist. Sasha’s preferred option (and mine) would carry less risk of injury for the athlete.

    I find it a lot easier to tell when gymnasts with better form are short too, and I assume the same is true for the judges. This is why, for example, I think Wieber was short at Scam. Her form was excellent, but on landing her knees didn’t appear to be pointing forwards. It’s very, very difficult to have your feet point one way and your knees another, when your knees and feet are together, after landing a multiply rotating and twisting salto.

    And yes, triple fulls from beam are virtually always short. It’s one reason why I can’t stand 99% of them. Larissa Iordache’s at EYOF this week wasn’t bad, some of Pavlova’s were watchable, but I can’t think of any others I enjoyed. They all should just water down to 2.5s instead. There have been some excellent examples of those. Right now, Wieber’s is very good. Liukin’s was too.
    C

  • x

    Almost every triple full is short. And then on vault, do you (should you?) credit it based on when their feet first touch the mat even if their weight is not yet on it? (the twisting into the mat thing)?

    I don’t know the answer but it should be clarified. Is it even biomechanically possible to do a lot of twisting and land like a dart fully twisted (and not go over)? I guess if you have enough reserves you can throw your arms out and arrest the twisting.

  • Sasha

    Who knows. Scoring was so different between ’09 and ’10 Worlds that it’s impossible to guess how the judges will judge this year. (And they’ve pretty much made it impossible for gymnasts/coaches to be strategic in their planning – do they go for more difficulty or more polish? But that’s a whole other issue.)

    Anyway, if scoring was anything like last year, probably. Personally I’d prefer to see incomplete twists credited then deducted (within reason) rather than devalued, so I this doesn’t particularly bother me. So long as no one breaks their neck.

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